[ Mid-tempo music plays ] ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Wright Thompson, New York Times best-selling author, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following -- At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> 3...2... >> We're very honored to welcome New York Times best-selling author Wright Thompson.

He's written a very important book about Mississippi.

And, Wright, thank you for joining us.

>> Thank you for your time, Dr. Chavis, and for your life of work.

It's an honor to be here, truly.

>> Well, thank you.

Now, I'm from North Carolina, originally.

You're from Mississippi originally.

As a Southerner to Southerner, how did you come to have the courage to write a book about the tragedy of Emmett Till?

>> I would say two things, Dr. Chavis.

One, I grew up -- my family is from 23 miles from the barn where Emmett Till was taken.

And I didn't know anything about it.

And so I felt like the book is my investigation in its most meta sense of how that could possibly be.

And in terms of the courage to write about it, I mean, in this process, I got to know Reverend Wheeler Parker, who was Emmett's cousin, best friend, rode the train south with him to New Orleans.

And Reverend Parker and his wife, Dr. Marvel Parker, are out there doing this work.

And so after seeing what he... survived and how he has dedicated his life to reliving this pain over and over and over and over so that he keeps the memory of his friend alive -- nothing I did in front of a laptop, to be honest, felt that courageous.

>> Over the years, I came to know and become very acquainted with Emmett Till's mother, Mrs. Mamie Mobley, in Chicago.

>> Yes, sir.

>> And the context of 1955 in Mississippi -- keep in mind, right, that in 1954 it was this famous Supreme Court decision that basically said segregation was unconstitutional, certainly in the schools.

But it had consequences for everything -- schools, public accommodations.

And, then, one year later in Mississippi -- what city is that barn in, or town?

>> So, the barn is in between Drew and Ruleville.

And Ruleville is famously the hometown of Fannie Lou Hamer.

And, I mean, look, you're absolutely right.

I mean, one of the things that I certainly didn't know, that I think most people don't know, is that one of the real forces or one of the real -- I don't know how to say it.

One of the real culprits in the torture and murder of a child was politicians and their rhetoric.

I mean, you know, 1954 was Brown v. Board, as you well know, 1955 was Brown v. Board II, with Thurgood Marshall representing the NAACP.

And, you know, that's the all-deliberate speed ruling.

And so that summer, there was a Mississippi gubernatorial election that might be the most racially violent rhetoric of any election in the history of the state of Mississippi, which is saying something.

And it was a race to the bottom.

You go read the accounts of these rallies, and they are unbelievable.

They're whipping the people up into a frenzy.

And what most people don't know, and I certainly didn't know, was that that election day was on a Tuesday.

And Emmett and his cousins went to Bryant's Grocery on a Wednesday.

And so the precipitating event happened literally the day after maybe the most racially charged, violent -- you know, rhetorically violent election in the history of a state that is, you know, even though it's my home, is famous for those kind of elections.

>> Well, listen.

Your book is very timely.

While it's about what happened in 1955, it has resonance.

>> Yes.

>> So, tell me the title of your book.

Why did you decide to title your book "The Barn"?

>> One of the things that haunted me is, you know, people live very close to the barn where Emmett was taken.

And, you know, at first, I was like, "Well, how could they live that close?"

And then I started asking myself, "Well, how far is far enough away?"

You know, was across the road far enough away?

Is the next county?

Is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue far enough away?

Like, how far enough away is far enough away?

And it felt to me that the history of America is too big to hold in your hand, but you can hold the history of one building in your hand.

And it felt like a way to tell -- to try to contextualize this incredibly horrible thing that happened.

Because, you know, it became apparent to me that it was a story of a murder, but it was also the story of the rise and rot of a tribe of people, which, frankly, I am one of.

And, you know, my mom is always on Facebook, you know, because she is a staunch Democrat, and she gets in all of these political discussions with people.

And one time I asked her, I was like, "Why are you fighting with all these people on the Internet?"

And, you know, 'cause I just get worried about her.

She lives alone.

And I'd just be like -- you know, she was fearless in these fights.

And she said, "It's because I was born in 1947.

I lived through all of this.

And we weren't involved in it, but we didn't say anything."

And she said, "I always promised myself that if I ever had another chance, if I was ever given by God another chance, I would never be silent again."

Because, you know, it came to appear to me that the divide in the country over so much that goes wrong here isn't between good and evil, but between brave and cowardly.

And, you know, the silence of quote-unquote "good people" is what is required for Emmett Till to be murdered or for January 6 to happen, I mean, to your point that this is relevant today.

I mean, we are in the middle of one of the most violently rhetorical political campaigns, you know, of my lifetime.

Maybe not of yours.

You know, you've seen a lot of them.

But it occurred to me that calling it "The Barn" was a way to center it on this one square of earth.

And if you could tell the entire story of 36 square miles of land in the Mississippi Delta, then maybe you could tell the story of the whole South and therefore of America.

>> Well, thank you.

And I'm sure that the courage of your mother has rubbed off on you.

>> Well, she would.

Look, let me just tell you, you know, my father, one of his best friends was Aaron Henry.

And, you know, they were the co-chairs of the Coahoma County Democratic Party.

And I used to -- Dr. Henry used to call our house super early in the morning, 'cause he would wake up.

And, you know, if I wasn't honest and if I wasn't truthful, then my mother would have something to say to me, and my father would be rolling over in his grave.

>> What I find encouraging about your book, you deal very deeply into the context, the historical reality, which I believe has a lot of application to today and time.

>> Well, I appreciate that.

And, you know...

I love Mississippi and therefore demand to know the truth about it, 'cause otherwise I don't actually live here.

I live in some mythic place of my own creation.

I mean, I do draw comfort from the fact that politicians can try to ban books.

They can burn books.

But knowledge -- knowledge will find daylight.

Hope will find daylight.

Truth will find daylight.

And, you know, as long as there are people who want to know the truth about themselves and about where they live and are willing to interrogate their myths, then, you know, that to me feels like the whole game of being a citizen.

I mean, if you're not doing that, I don't really understand what it is you're doing.

>> You know, from my perspective -- I would like to know yours, right?

>> Yes, sir.

>> I think we've made a lot of progress, even in Mississippi.

That gives me the impetus, the aspiration to make sure that we continue to push forward.

You mentioned Fannie Lou Hamer.

You know, her famous quote was, "I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired."

>> "Sick and tired."

>> So, Mississippi, I would say this -- which way Mississippi goes, so goes America.

>> I could not agree with you more.

I mean, you know, Myrlie Evers, Medgar Evers' widow, has this quote that I love, 'cause it's so hopeful.

That is, "Yes, Mississippi was, but Mississippi is."

And we have gone a long way.

I don't know about you, but the real horror for me, watching the last several years and of reading about the systematic way in which Emmett Till has been erased in many ways -- I mean, it is both an incredibly well-known murder, and yet many details of it have been hidden from view, I mean, to the point that they're still uncovering things that happened.

And so the thing that I found horror in is that you just see how easy it would be for us to slip backwards and for it to be 1954 again.

I mean, you know, I don't want to get -- look, I know there are people watching of all political persuasions.

But, I mean, one of the things that horrifies me watching Donald Trump is that it -- You can see how easy it would be for someone to drag us back to 1954, and then for us to have to do all of this over again.

And so I think you're right.

I think we're at a really critical moment.

And, you know, writing this book is my tiny piece of it.

It's my version of trying to live up to my mother's promise to herself that she would never be silent again.

>> What gives your book validity, in addition to the kind of genius way you put the book together, is that you're from Mississippi.

You're not an outside agitator.

You're not a Yankee liberal.

You are Mississippi born, Mississippi raised.

So in my view, if anybody's gonna tell the truth about what happened to Emmett Till, it has to come from a Mississippian.

>> I certainly felt that I understood the economics that were going on that were driving all of this.

I certainly understood the value and danger of myth, especially the myth of Mississippi and especially the myth of the Mississippi Delta.

You know, I mean, we both mentioned the late Medgar Evers.

I mean, one of the things that I was so fascinated by is that one of the witnesses to this murder, Willie Reed, who is just a great American -- I mean, he, 18 years old, testified against these men in open court, had to leave in the middle of the night, never come -- you know, and had to leave in the middle of the night, move to Chicago, and change his name and live in exile.

I mean, I think Willie Reed should be on money.

Like, you know, I mean, the guy is a hero.

And Willie Reed had to leave his family home and walk down a gravel road to Highway 8, where a car was waiting to take him to the Memphis Airport and then to Chicago.

And the man driving that car in 1955, in September, was Medgar Evers.

And you just realize that these names that you have heard in history books did this over and over and over and over and over again with the hope that we would never have to do it again.

And so, you know, I feel that very strongly, what you said.

>> Well, one thing is -- one note of progress, the federal government, the Congress of the United States, finally passed an anti-lynching legislation.

That's only recently.

>> Very recently.

>> Yes.

>> But I think our society is thirsty and hungry for truth, particularly our young people, millennials and Generation Z.

>> Yes, sir.

>> And in their search for truth we have to make sure we point them in the right direction, because unfortunately, there's a lot misinformation out there, disinformation, a lot of stereotypes.

So as an author that's publishing in this time period, how would you say is the best way to overcome some of the disinformation and misinformation, not only about the South and Mississippi, but the issue of racism in America?

>> I think you start with humility and the idea that you don't know everything and that you're definitely fallible, and to question everything.

And, you know, I mean, I added an extra layer of fact-checking onto the book, because I don't want -- I didn't want there to be any little thing wrong that someone who disagrees with the vision of America that I believe from, you know, 20 minutes I can tell you and I share, I didn't want anybody to be able to say, "See?

This isn't true."

And so I think rigorous honesty, rigorous discipline to the truth.

And I think at the end of the day, you have to -- like, that's where you -- like, that's the hill I'll die on.

>> What would you say to young writers today about having the courage to be truth-tellers?

>> That at the end of the day, you want to be able to look in the mirror.

And look.

I love people to like me.

And, you know... that has its place, obviously.

But, I mean, you just have to tell the truth.

I mean, the things -- the things that I learned that were just hiding in plain sight about this killing -- Here's what it is, Doctor.

Mississippi and North Carolina, where you're from -- it's full of abandoned barns and varying states of decay -- full of them.

You get on a road, you drive from Wilmington down, like, inland, you'll pass 50 of them.

And, you know, when I drive from my home in Oxford back to where I grew up in Clarksdale, I pass -- I don't know, a hundred of them.

And I cannot drive down a Southern road now without wondering, "I wonder what happened in that barn that we don't know about."

>> Well, again, that's why the importance of a book like the one you have just written.

Hopefully it will shed light and give other writers, other investigative journalists, the inspiration to open the doors of some of them barns, put a little focus on what happened in the fields, the barns, the trees.

I mean, in my hometown, there was a hill called Lynch's Hill.

And that's where all the lynching took place.

Everybody in the community knew about it.

And my parents used to tell me that when a lynching took place, some of the people who would participate -- they were on horseback -- would stop in my grandparents' yard to get water for their horses.

And, you know, people would be in literally fear.

So I think one of the ways to overcome this fear -- this is what I wanted to ask you -- is not only in books, but curriculums.

And I think that early is better.

Our young people need to be exposed to the truth at an early age, because prejudice is developed at an early age.

No one is born a racist.

It's part of the social conditioning.

>> You know, and you're exactly right.

And, I mean, the earlier, the better.

And the idea that this makes people feel bad about themselves -- one, I don't really care.

But, two, I mean, you know, the beauty of America is that we are one of, if not the only nation, that's even trying to do this.

And so the fact that we are willing to have these difficult conversations, to open every barn, as you said, and to shine a light on every tree and to talk about where the horses got water while people went to have a picnic while a human being was killed, that is one more example of America living up to its ideals.

As opposed to, like, to damaging my faith in America, that improves my faith in America, that we are a country confident enough in ourselves and in our bonds with each other to have these conversations.

And so, look, I completely agree with you.

>> A colleague of mine -- his name is Tim Tyson.

>> Yes, sir.

>> He's a writer.

He wrote a book called "Blood Done Sign My Name."

It's about my hometown.

He's also a professor now with me at Duke University.

The reason why I'm bringing up Tim, as you may know, Wright, he interviewed the white woman.

>> Carolyn.

Yes, sir.

>> Carolyn.

I think she was in Raleigh, North Carolina, at the time before she passed away.

And she confessed to Tim Tyson that Emmett Till had not done anything to her objectionable, but she did not want to tell the truth all these years.

But she did not want to pass, you know, without telling somebody that Emmett Till should not have been murdered, should not have been lynched, should not have been beat to death in that barn, and should not have his body thrown in a swamp.

>> Yes, sir.

>> What do you feel about Carolyn's confession?

>> You know, it is -- She told herself that lie for so many years that on a certain level, I think she started to believe it.

You know, the FBI investigator in the case, Dale Killinger, talked to the profilers, I guess, at Quantico before he went to interview her.

And one of the things they told her was that "Just be ready.

Like, she might be able to pass a lie-detector test."

You know, I think her talking to Tim or, you know, Jerry Mitchell just had just found new documents from William Bradford Huie about the confession.

I mean, we are forever learning new things.

And, you know, if anything, it feels like the best I could hope for is for this book to be another brick in the wall.

And, you know, there will be someone else coming, and hopefully they will take information from my book and find new things and then do something new and push the ball forward.

And, you know, if I have any mistakes, some other scholar or historian or journalist will come and correct them and find new things.

And I just think it's a slow, multi-generational march to the truth.

And, you know -- you know, certainly when a book comes out, you feel like the center of the universe.

But, I mean, you know, humility and faith requires that you just see yourself as a link in a chain.

>> You're a distinguished author.

You're an accomplished capturer of the narratives of your home state.

Wright Thompson, what gives you today your greatest hope for the future?

>> That over and over, America has walked up to the brink and then been led into a bright future by our shared better angels.

I mean, if you read about what America was like in 1939 and 1940, it wasn't entirely clear that most of the country was against the Nazis.

And then a fever broke.

And so the thing that gives me hope is that America has always been the push and pull and the tug-of-war between tribalism and this idea that a union can be built upon freedom and not upon race, religion, or creed.

And so my hope is that we have always fought this battle and probably will always fight this battle.

And for the last almost, you know, 2 1/2 centuries, at the critical moments when we were at the brink, our better angels have won.

And I just have to hope that that continues.

>> Well, listen, man.

We so much appreciate what you have done, what you are doing, and I believe what you will do.

Keep that pen in your hand.

>> Thank you, sir.

It's been a real privilege.

>> Thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following -- At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives.

equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring health, and happiness live as long as you do.

[ Mid-tempo music plays ] ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪